Home » General Conversation » Gun Talk » .30 Herrett instead of .300 blackout or .300 Whisper?
| .30 Herrett instead of .300 blackout or .300 Whisper? [message #37023] |
Sun, 22 February 2015 02:43  |
Satmary
Messages: 17
Registered: February 2014
Location: Murrieta, California
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I see a lot of folks looking for T/C barrels in .300 Blackout or .300 Whisper. The Blackout/Whisper cartidges are made by cutting down rimless .223 brass, and are designed to work in AR magazines. A rimmed cartidge, however, is always a better choice in a single shot, like the T/C. Why not go with the good old .30 Herrett, which is made from cutting and reforming rimmed .30-30 brass? The ballistics would be quite similar, and there are plenty of .30 Herrett barrels and dies available. Any thoughts?
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| Re: .30 Herrett instead of .300 blackout or .300 Whisper? [message #37024 is a reply to message #37023] |
Sun, 22 February 2015 08:31  |
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The part of your post that says it all is "The Blackout/Whisper cartidges are made by cutting down rimless .223 brass, and are designed to work in AR magazines." So many people have jumped on to the AR bandwagon. I am not sure where it is headed but I do know that it put a bunch of money in the barrel maker's pockets. Just my feelings and your mileage may vari.
Mr. Murl
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Molan Labe
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| Re: .30 Herrett instead of .300 blackout or .300 Whisper? [message #37027 is a reply to message #37024] |
Sun, 22 February 2015 10:51 |
jamesgammel
Messages: 1708
Registered: August 2012
Location: Lovell, Wyoming
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cut down 222, 222 mag or 223 brass. However, they were designed from using 221 brass. "Whisper" used a HEAVY bullet running at subsonic velocities. You had to put a big ass bullet in the smaller 221 case to have it FIT in an AR magazine. Why the 221/223 family? they run at higher pressures, in the AR 55K+ for nato rounds. Other options would have been that long heavy bullet sitting well into a 223 case, lost powder space.
30 Herrett was designed primarily as a pistol round when the longest contender barrel was a 10". 30-30 suffered with too much case for the barrel length. Both the 30 and 357 Herretts were highly effiecient rounds in a 10, used in 14's (when they came out about three years later) made them gain even more, adjusting to slower powders.
The diameter of the 30-30 and it's case has a lower pressure limit and has to be maintained to prevent frame damage. And you are right, rimmed cartridges are the better option in the break action guns. The europeans do make a rimmed version of the 223, and it's case in the break-actions would boost the whisper's use in the encore and contender, however, finding and getting the brass isn't easy or cheap.
If you're shooting the Contender either the 10 or 14 in either Herrett cartridge is a good choice. I, personally, view the whispers as poacher and trespasser tools, especially when suppressed or silenced. Back east where it's more populated the whispers may have their place for hogs and the like, or even big game like deer in densely populated areas with real small pockets of available deer cover.
What somewhat surprises me is why Winchester and Marlin never considered the two Herretts in their 94's and 336's, they'd have been nice alternatives to both the 30-30 and 35 Rem. Instead they opted to go to the 307 and 356 Wins for a while. They both died out in T/C land back in the 80's.
[Updated on: Sun, 22 February 2015 10:53] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: .30 Herrett instead of .300 blackout or .300 Whisper? [message #37029 is a reply to message #37027] |
Sun, 22 February 2015 12:07 |
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cajuntec
Messages: 1247
Registered: November 2009
Location: Williamsburg, VA
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Recently, I've seen quite a few of these types of posts on various sites. My question is always "Why does it have to be either-or?" Why can't you just own both, or several? Why do people feel the need to bag on one cartridge or support another? The ensuing arguments, for or against, always seem amusing.
But you asked... so lets go down that rabbit hole...
First, .30 Herrett, as Jim mentioned above - really needs no intro. Nor a backing for that matter. Nice cartridge, and I'll probably own one someday. To try to talk about the .30 H any better than what Jim can is something I can't do. I'll bow to his knowledge of the subject, and move on to one I do know very well.
Now, lets go into "why" the enticement for .300 BO / .300 Whisper. Various reasons, but I'll name a few.
1) Availability of brass to build the cartridge - I can walk down to almost any range right now, and I guarantee I can find 5 gallon bucket-loads of .223 brass on the ground. Look up .300 BO brass on the internet.
2) Availability of already formed brass (in bulk) - There are specialty stores that sell it by large lots. They are reforming range .223 brass and kicking out tons of it to consumers that want it. There are places that sell 1000 pieces for $150, and it's clean, formed, annealed, ready to use.
3) Availability of equipment to form and reload it -
.300 BO Lee Pacesetter dies - $31 at Midway (in stock)
.300 BO / .300 Whisper Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension dies - $35 at Midway (in stock)
.300 BO RCBS dies - $62 at Midway (in stock)
.300 BO Redding Deluxe - $122 at Midway (in stock)
.300 BO trim jig - $40, plus the cost of a Harbor Freight Chop Saw ($20-$25):
http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80842
4) "Support Groups" 
www.300blktalk.com
www.300aacblackout.com
5) It's versatility with supersonic / subsonic. I have loads made up with 125 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip's, as well as loads made up with 208 grain Hornady A-Max'. Both shoot well out of the same gun. One is supersonic, the other is subsonic. A suppressor (there really is no such thing as a "silencer" in reality - as "silence" implies completely quiet, no sound, which it is not), also adds to the fun and enjoyment of the subsonic versions for many.
6) The fact that my AR already shoots it, and I have all the ammo / equipment to make ammo, just entices me more into buying a pistol barrel for either my Encore or Contender.
All the best,
Glenn
If at first you don't succeed... buy newer / better equipment!
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| Re: .30 Herrett instead of .300 blackout or .300 Whisper? [message #37050 is a reply to message #37029] |
Sun, 22 February 2015 23:28 |
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Crubear
Messages: 1796
Registered: March 2010
Location: NW Georgia
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Can't add much except to say you will have these discussions over any cartridge comparison. 308 vs 30-06, etc. These discussions go with having a fire arm and an opinion.
I have owned, formed, and fired both Herretts. The are fun, they can be a blast, and they took a lot of time to form. I figured out some tricks after I'd sold the barrels. As I chew over getting back into the Contender one of the cartridges I'm looking at is the 30 Herrett in a 16" barrel. Then again, if your're going to go that route why not go with a 30-30? Decisions
The final arbiter for me was where could I get brass and how much work was it to form? The TCU cartridges were easy to get brass for, easy to form, and great fun to shoot. When forming the 357 Herrett I had over half the NEW Winchester cases I was using split - they then became 30 Herretts.
Like Glenn says, get a set of barrels for each. Find what you like and trade off the others for another set of "Which is better?" tests
Honestly, I have all the barrels I want or could ever need..... wait, look, there's another!!
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| Re: .30 Herrett instead of .300 blackout or .300 Whisper? [message #37056 is a reply to message #37050] |
Mon, 23 February 2015 06:36 |
rchatting
Messages: 499
Registered: August 2011
Location: Middle Georgia
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This is kind of the argument for a 6.8SPC. I have a buddy that was looking into buying one for his contender. But he already has a 7-30 waters. He can make all the waters brass he wants from 30-30 easily. When comparing ballistics, they are pretty darn close and maybe even the 7-30 has an edge. However, if you are looking to put it in an AR platform, the 6.8 is the only option of the two and like the Blackout, at the moment, reloading stuff is everywhere. So for a new purchase, if not already owning a 7-30, the 6.8 wins. But, in 20 years, when the 6.8 has been forgotten, you can still make 7-30 from 30-30 which has survived more than 100 years. Not to mention, the 6.8 is based on an obsolete cartridge.
So, if you have a 30 Herrett in the Contender, the Blackout has no real gain. But if buying new, the Blackout has a lot more options currently and it goes into an AR platform. I do have to say, a 30 Herret is a cooler cartridge IHMO.
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| Re: .30 Herrett instead of .300 blackout or .300 Whisper? [message #37143 is a reply to message #37141] |
Wed, 25 February 2015 17:28 |
jamesgammel
Messages: 1708
Registered: August 2012
Location: Lovell, Wyoming
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Two things BAD about those extensions and using them. One is that they add nothing to the barrel's rifling, so trying or thinking you're going to get more powder burn and/or bullet velocity is a pipe dream. Second is you've seriously hurt the re-sale potential.
The instructions want you to drill a shallow 3/8's hole in the bottom of the barrel, slip the extension on, and weld the extension onto the barrel. Welding it on without distorting the bore is next to impossible, unless you just happen to have laying around a programmable stress reliever.
T/C, except the Custom shop, never offered the 30 or 357 Herretts in the super 16. They quit making the 10's and 14's in the late 80's.
Economics and Satisfaction: You can find the barrel for about 250. Another 30 (your figure) for the extension. Maybe you can weld it on yourself, maybe a buddy will do it free. If not, you'll have to pay someone another 20 (minimum) to do the job. Now you're at 300, not counting shipping for any of it. You can either find one at Ed's in 16 or longer for damn near the same $$$ outlay and have full rifling, a much better crown, a better quality barrel than T/C ever DREAMED of making, and in SS (if wanted) that T/C never chambered either Herrett in. Thank goodness those extensions WEREN'T very popular, I see maybe one cobbled up barrel a year in my barrel searches
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| Re: .30 Herrett instead of .300 blackout or .300 Whisper? [message #37146 is a reply to message #37143] |
Wed, 25 February 2015 19:52 |
gemihur
Messages: 312
Registered: March 2012
Location: Ridgelines of Virginia
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Amen, Jim! I've had barrels wearing a choate brake before and you had to durn near give 'em away! Ugly Ducklings, I would call 'em. Only a small audience will buy 'em.
As for the 30 Herrett and 357 Herrett barrels...
Bob Milek and Steve Herrett designed those cartridges to perform in the 10" barrels. If you use them in 14's or longer you might as well have stayed with the 30-30 or 35 Remington.
At least you'd get better ballistics and not have to go through all those steps to create the brass for a cartridge designed for a shorter tube. in a 10" bbl, they shine!
Well, it's intersesting That Rich brought up the 6.8 SPC, I'd have included another newcomer to this discussion, the 6.5 Grendel. All these newly designed cartridges were expressly engineered to accomodate the AR's platform. Hense, candidates for specific government contracts. My vote goes to the Grendel.
Bill Alexander brought from the UK a deep understanding of smallarm warfare and ballistics. Evolving first from the 220 Russian to the 6mmPPC he compiled the design to utilize the highest ballistic coefficient bullet tolerated by the case, the 6.5 mm. I'll grant you that factory loads are in the 90-123 gr. range but for downrange energy, per bill Alexander himself, the 130 and 140 gr bullets carry on with zeal! He claims, and I don't, that it's an 800 yd. round! If you research you will find it excells the 6.8 SPC, the 300 BLK, the 7.62X39 and the 5.56 out past the 500 yard range.
I've found great availability of components for ammo utilizing RP 7.62X39 brass, it's the only domestic brand in that chambering , aside from costly Lapua, that offered the small primer pockets and with a nominal charge of your favorite stick powder and a heavy bullet, It ROCKS!!. It is a custom only chamber, but it works real good in the contender... 'nuff said.
Think twice...shoot once.
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