Home » General Conversation » Gun Talk » 357 max (what is the fascination?)
| 357 max [message #32390] |
Thu, 24 July 2014 09:26  |
rchatting
Messages: 499
Registered: August 2011
Location: Middle Georgia
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I see a lot of folks that are all into the .357 max. Unless you are in state that only allows straight walled pistol cartridges to hunt, what is the real purpose? Won't a .35 remington do everything the max will and more? Not to mention the .35 rem is more common barrel wise (and cheaper) and ammo and brass is much easier to get. Yes, I know that you can shoot a mag or spl out of the max, but is that the only advantage?
I have a 14" .35 rem and a 12" .357 mag. Would there be any benefit at all to ream the mag to a max?
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| Re: 357 max [message #32395 is a reply to message #32394] |
Thu, 24 July 2014 19:43  |
jamesgammel
Messages: 1708
Registered: August 2012
Location: Lovell, Wyoming
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If you want to improve your 35 Rem, have a counter-bore cut so it accepts a 30-40 Rim and use either 30-40 or 303 British shortened brass for your cases. Head-spacing much more reliable than the smallish shoulder. Improves accuracy. Still use your 35 Rem dies, just use the 30-40's shell-holder. I did it back in 81/82 and was quite impressed with how it worked out. Remove the extractor, and lightly tap it with a hammer to take the "kink" out. If you don't you can still use regular 35 Rem ammo interchangeably. I always thought of it as the "poor man's wildcat", I cut the rim counter-bore myself on mine as a freebie at work.
Jim
[Updated on: Thu, 24 July 2014 19:44] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: 357 max [message #32396 is a reply to message #32395] |
Thu, 24 July 2014 20:28 |
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cajuntec
Messages: 1251
Registered: November 2009
Location: Williamsburg, VA
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Quote:I know that you can shoot a mag or spl out of the max, but is that the only advantage?
My Custom Shop .357 Max barrel shoots all three very well. Sometimes, what someone considers to be an insignificant advantage, turns out to be of great importance to another shooter. That is why there are so many different calibers, cartridges, and loads for each. What you appear to brush off as an insignificant item above is actually a huge selling point for me.
Before I go into my example, I want to ensure you understand that I am not claiming the .357 Max is superior to the .35 Remington. I'm only providing examples in an effort to show you that the .357 Max is not an insignificant chambering, and that it definitely is very versatile.
When I started my young son on this barrel, we began with some very mild .38 Specials. We then moved up to some +P .38 SPL, and finally to the current .357 Mags he shoots right now. I shoot the .357 max, but haven't loaded them up to the high end yet. That time is coming - probably as soon as I can get my hands on the bullets I'm looking for. I have 100 pieces of brass for the .357 Max, and in a single shot, that brass should last me a good long time.
I have plenty of load data for the .357 Max, Mag, and .38 SPL, as well as the .35 Rem, but for the sake of easy comparison with loads that have been posted online for easy comparison, I'll use Ammoguide for a ready reference. I realize your results may vary, depending on your own loads, but I just wanted to provide some examples. These are NOT the end-all-be-all results for the mentioned rounds. Just a ready comparison.
If I want a little more than what the .357 Mag has to offer, I can always load the Max's up with some 250 grain Hot-Cor Spitzer's and punch out at 1770 FPS at 1739 ft lbs of Kinetic Energy, or even go to a 200 grain Hornady and go all the way to 2088 fps at 1937 ft lbs of KE.
With the loads listed on Ammoguide, the Average Muzzle Velocity of a .35 Remington using an Average Employed Bullet Weight of 190 will have a slower Average Muzzle Velocity at 2059, and less KE at 1777 ft lbs. Now there are some loads, like the 200 Hornady listed for the .35 Remington that will produce 2139 fps at 2032 ft lbs of KE, so the .35 Remington beats the .357 Max overall, but not by much.
However, given this comparison, you can see that I can load up and shoot some little wimpy .38 SPL rounds at 705 fps and only 106 ft lbs of KE, all the way up to Max's at 2088 fps at 1937 ft lbs of KE... all with the same barrel.
I found that more than enough of a reason to try the chambering, and I have not been disappointed with the results.
All the best,
Glenn
If at first you don't succeed... buy newer / better equipment!
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| Re: 357 max [message #32404 is a reply to message #32396] |
Fri, 25 July 2014 06:57 |
rchatting
Messages: 499
Registered: August 2011
Location: Middle Georgia
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Glenn, I was kind of thinking along those lines. Since I have both barrels, I already cover that spectrum save if I am in the field I can't readily swap chamberings. But if you had only 1 barrel, the max would be the way to go. The max does run a bit less powder, so I imagine the recoil is a bit less also. I just wish max brass was as common as mag.
Most of the max barrels I have seen are 10" and my mag is 12", do you get significant gains in the 10" max over the 12" mag? Or are you using a longer barrel? I found a 10" max in a pawn shop but you can see what I call "chatter" marks in the end of the barrel on the rifling so I stayed away from it.
Jim, that is food for thought. I do have a good bit of .303 brass (which I was saving if I ever start reloading mine).
Have any of you guys rented a reamer and converted your mag to max? Or do you recommend sending to a Smith to do the work on the lathe? Is the hype between throat and forcing cone as big of a deal as some Smith's claim?
Thanks for all of the input.
[Updated on: Fri, 25 July 2014 07:00] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: 357 max [message #32407 is a reply to message #32404] |
Fri, 25 July 2014 11:28 |
jamesgammel
Messages: 1708
Registered: August 2012
Location: Lovell, Wyoming
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Rich, Remember the max runs at higher pressures, recoil difference between the two will be minimal. Most guys hunting like to use the same bullet in BOTH, the Hornady 180 SSP. That Bullet is certainly deer capable whether in a maxed out 357 mag running near Max velocities, The Max at it's max pressure, or the 35 Rem at it's less pressure, but more case capacity and powder levels. For the most part it's a "wash". Here's where case availability may become a variable in the choice process of one OR the other. And NO, the throat and forcing cone issue is a big deal. Just remember MOST Smith's don't know diddly about contenders,encores,or any other break action. Bolt guns, yes. Sammi specs for chambers on revolvers assumes a cylinder, rotating it, aligning with the bore, and launching a bullet out of a chamber into a barrel with a GAP between. They DON'T have separate specs if its a bolt gun, much less a single shot whether fixed barrel or inter-chageable.
Both Bellm and David White have special deals for the conversion, and have a proper reamer that takes it all into account, and the price is well worth it. A local smith knows so little, he wouldn't give a crap what the reamer was for him it's just $$ in his pocket whether it's "right" or not. Either will start with a 38 special or 357 mag chamber and you'd end up with a great shooter. Make no bones about it, shooting 38's and 357's in a 357 max chamber with any load will eventually erode the chambers. it's the how MUCH, and how often that's the critical part. That's from gas "cutting", as well as "sandblast" effect from the unburnt powder in the middle portion of the max's chamber with those other cases and loads.
That 180 SSP is also ELK capable at closer ranges in either. Stretching much further in the likes of the 358JDJ (300+). I've documented 22 consecutive one-shot instantaneous kills (almost all witnessed) from 250-325 since oct, 1995. That's not speculation, that's FACTS. (8 of those I didn't even hunt elk), or even fire a round at paper) 2013 was #22. Haven't decided yet about 2014, *may* start a new barrel, chambering, bullet,scope etc.record, 338X444AI.
Jim
[Updated on: Fri, 25 July 2014 11:41] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: 357 max [message #32409 is a reply to message #32407] |
Fri, 25 July 2014 12:43 |
rchatting
Messages: 499
Registered: August 2011
Location: Middle Georgia
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Pressure has absolutely nothing to do with recoil, that is a common misconception. The equation for recoil uses bullet weight, powder weight, velocity and firearm velocity. That is it. All else being equal, if you get the same velocity from 2 different powders and one powder is a lighter charge, it will recoil less. I don't think it is a large factor, but it does make a difference.
A question I have about gas "cutting". Why does it cut a long chamber, but not the barrel on a proper fit chamber? After all, you are forcing that same hot gas, flame and unburnt powder down the same barrel as the chamber. I would think it is going to cut whatever it is close too, if closer to the rifling, I would think it would cut the rifling. with the gas cutting issue, I might want to keep the .357 mag since I suspect I will be using that brass most of the time anyway. Just wondering, about how much does it cost to convert one, bottom line from the time it leaves my house to mounting back on my frame?
AS for the current production of .357 mag barrels from TC, my 12" bbl was manufactured early this year or last year, can't remember. How would I know if it is throat or forcing cone? So far I have gotten some 1.5" groups at 100 with some of my loads so mine seems to shoot pretty well as is.
Thanks.
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| Re: 357 max [message #32411 is a reply to message #32410] |
Fri, 25 July 2014 14:39 |
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cajuntec
Messages: 1251
Registered: November 2009
Location: Williamsburg, VA
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Rich,
My .357 Max barrel is a full bull rifle barrel from the custom shop. Heavy. Little to no recoil at all (to me). If we were talking strictly pistols, I probably wouldn't have been anywhere near as interested in it, as my son probably would not have been able to handle it.
All the best,
Glenn
If at first you don't succeed... buy newer / better equipment!
[Updated on: Fri, 25 July 2014 14:40] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: 357 max [message #32412 is a reply to message #32411] |
Fri, 25 July 2014 18:05 |
jamesgammel
Messages: 1708
Registered: August 2012
Location: Lovell, Wyoming
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Rich,
I'm presently on my third 358 JDJ. The first was made from that rimmed 35 Rem I mentioned earlier this thread. When it dissapeared, courtesy my now ex-wife, when she went to federal prison I sent Jones a 357 Herrett blued barrel and it was rechambered. That Disapeared between prison stints. Post divorce (93) in 95 I sent Jones a third barrel, another 14" 35 Rem, only it was SS. Still have that one. So yes, Jones, Bellm, or White would rechamber your 35 Rem. Jone's version isn't a true AI. Bellm and White's would be. Jones sells his own RCBS dies for his version. Bellm may get for his version maybe CH4D. White, will custom make you dies for about the same prices as what the other 2 would sell you their's for. Personally I'd Opt for White.
Gas Cutting: Think of this, Glenn, that gas cutting is still in the case area of the chamber for 357 Max. If there's a "divot" from that your 357 max case will expand and fill it. It *may* at some point create extraction issues. You're always going to have throat and rifling cutting with all three, whether 38 357 mag or 357 max in that max chamber. If you're comfortable with doing that, that's your choice.
Jim
[Updated on: Fri, 25 July 2014 18:35] by Moderator Report message to a moderator |
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