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Just trying to create controversy [message #44031] Mon, 05 March 2018 22:31 Go to next message
pinecone is currently offline  pinecone
Messages: 116
Registered: May 2014
Location: Northwest
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I've been reloading rifle calibers for a long time. I'm just starting get into the realm between slow pistol powders and fast rifle powders and the dreaded detonation, pre-ignition, secondary ignition and flashover from reduced loads!! I've always respected it but never studied it until now.

I'v read on the forums everything that say it doesn't exist to "I blew my gun up 5 times but only my neighbor was hurt" !!
So on to the context: With the advent of the MSR's (Modern Sport Rifles i.e Black guns) I find guys using small amounts of the fastest pistol/rifle powders in much larger cases (300 BO, 308, 350 bewolf, etc.) in the process of seeking Subsonic loads or low velocity loads for quieter and I guess less offensive shooting. I personally can't tell much difference in sound but my hearing isn't the best. I don't know if it was 35 years of helicopters or because I didn't shoot subsonic loads...? I read that "never load less than 10% of the published maximum load", which if you do the math is usually the published minimum. 4895 can be reduced to 60 % per the manufacture. You can't fill a straight wall case with enough slow rifle powder to get to maximum pressure but if you go 2 grs. under minimum your gun will blow up. You can safely load any load 10% under the published minimum..... and many more.

I truthfully don't understand because I have never found a plausible explanation for any of the above. Now you see modern powders that are declared non-position sensitive, not temperature sensitive and in the case of Trail Boss, load anything to the bottom of the bullet and shoot so these powder types should do away with the problem, right? While I don't know about reduced loads I do know about Boyle's Law and that could possibly lead one to think that flash over or what ever you want to call it couldn't happen ! to stir the pot a little, does anyone have thoughts or Ideas on the subject, would appreciate the input.

[Updated on: Mon, 05 March 2018 22:34]

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Re: Just trying to create controversy [message #44032 is a reply to message #44031] Tue, 06 March 2018 00:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sunnysmarine is currently offline  sunnysmarine
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Registered: July 2011
Location: CA
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Roger WELCOME to the dark side, wear 2 pair of glasses and the heaviest hearing protectors your old neck will support close your eyes and prepare to go BANG !!!!! well more like poofffff slow powders reduced to much are the biggest concern so just avoid them, now head off to the store you'll need Blue Dot Red Dot Green Dot Longshot Bullseye Unique IMR4227 IMR4198 H4198 and about a dozen more !! almost sounds like a country song
Re: Just trying to create controversy [message #44034 is a reply to message #44032] Tue, 06 March 2018 08:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gemihur is currently offline  gemihur
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Registered: March 2012
Location: Ridgelines of Virginia
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In my experience of searching for reduced loads, you must also achieve adequate pressures to seal the chamber's throat with expanded brass or blow-by will occur down the case wall. This was in reference to use of 13.0 gr. of Trail Boss behind a light for bore, 265 gr. .455 Webley bullet in 45-70. The bullet's design utilized a hollow base that I was hoping would obturate for gas seal in the bore. A heavier round might have given sufficient cartridge to chamber seal to avoid the blow-by. Sunny's recommendations are valid, a variety of powders/loads will need to be experimented with until you stumble upon the recipe that your barrel delivers the results that you seek. H4198 reduced loads is a good place to start.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/tips-and -tricks/low-recoil-loads


Think twice...shoot once.
Re: Just trying to create controversy [message #44036 is a reply to message #44034] Tue, 06 March 2018 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sunnysmarine is currently offline  sunnysmarine
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Registered: July 2011
Location: CA
Senior Member
"blow by" hot gases leaking around the neck due to insufficient pressure to create a seal around the neck of a cartridge Rolling Eyes

I have found if you really like a powder bullet combination and it will not reliably seal you can anneal the case neck and shoulder a bit longer than usual, and yes straight wall cases too at least double your seating depth for me I seat out as far as possible don't ask why I just do Rolling Eyes , Just dedicate those so annealed to this use only. Smile

Or just live with it and leave the cases in the tumbler an hour longer than usual, Spend another minute cleaning the chamber usually I just let it soak over night with Patch Out and check the results with an extra patch with out pushing it through the bore, Carb Out works real good but should not be left to soak over night Confused
Re: Just trying to create controversy [message #44037 is a reply to message #44036] Tue, 06 March 2018 11:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crubear is currently offline  Crubear
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Registered: March 2010
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My 2 cents.... having made more than a few mistakes reloading (thank you TC for making strong firearms), I am now very much on the cautious side of things. So, if you want to shoot a subsonic round then get a barrel made to shoot a cartridge that can be safely loaded using published data to shoot at that speed (under 1126 ft/sec).

bottom line for me is it's my head next to the chamber... and I reload accordingly

I did try blue-dot in 223 many years ago, but couldn't get it to shoot anywhere near less than minute-of_barn... and the blow by made a mess of everything.







Honestly, I have all the barrels I want or could ever need..... wait, look, there's another!!
Re: Just trying to create controversy [message #44040 is a reply to message #44037] Tue, 06 March 2018 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pinecone is currently offline  pinecone
Messages: 116
Registered: May 2014
Location: Northwest
Junior Member
Thank you all for the replies. I don't want to shoot subsonic loads or black guns. I am just curious why those guys can shoot reduced loads without giving it any thought and the rest of us have to worry blowing our guns up! I guess I'm just trying to figure out if "detonation" is an urban legend or something to be really concerned with. Its Hell being a guy that as to have absolutes living in a world of variables !! My wife tells me I'm too black and white, I tell her she's wrong, I'm black OR white. !javascript: insertTag(document.post_form.msg_body, '', ' Very Happy ');
Re: Just trying to create controversy [message #44042 is a reply to message #44040] Tue, 06 March 2018 19:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gemihur is currently offline  gemihur
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Registered: March 2012
Location: Ridgelines of Virginia
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I've resigned to shooting reloaded ammo that is more "middle of the road" on the load charts and am less interested in untroddened ground.
I find bullets fly better when they fly faster.


Think twice...shoot once.
Re: Just trying to create controversy [message #44043 is a reply to message #44042] Wed, 07 March 2018 08:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crubear is currently offline  Crubear
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I'm only parroting what I've heard... back in the late 80's and early 90's I read more than a couple articles about detonations (45-70s that went boom). I dropped out for about 10 years and when I came back they were saying that it wasn't detonations, it was double charges of powder and excess pressure. Either way, shooting is already exciting without the fear of the barrel blowing up.

Honestly, I have all the barrels I want or could ever need..... wait, look, there's another!!
Re: Just trying to create controversy [message #45864 is a reply to message #44043] Wed, 12 February 2020 15:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ozojo is currently offline  ozojo
Messages: 6
Registered: February 2020
Location: Tennessee
Forum Newbie
To wake an old thread, give a listen to an old powder guru, GunBlue490
This is Part 1 [there is also a Part 2 ]
Re: Just trying to create controversy [message #45865 is a reply to message #45864] Wed, 12 February 2020 15:33 Go to previous message
ozojo is currently offline  ozojo
Messages: 6
Registered: February 2020
Location: Tennessee
Forum Newbie
GunBlue490 has vids on primers too, and many other things of great interest.
A knowledgeable, well-respected retired police detective, with experience.....
in other words, a good old f**t.
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