Home » General Conversation » Reloading » Shot reloaded shells today - Problems
| Shot reloaded shells today - Problems [message #22936] |
Thu, 27 June 2013 21:41  |
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cajuntec
Messages: 1250
Registered: November 2009
Location: Williamsburg, VA
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I bought a used MEC 600 JR (the older model) 12 gauge reloader a while back. In comparing the loads to the bushings I was supposed to be using in MEC's chart, I found that it was quite a bit off and had to move up in size. I was checking it with two scales - one Redding beam type, and one Hornady electronic. The chart is only supposed to be a guideline, so I accepted it - even if the bushing I had to use was 3 sizes larger (instead of a 29, I'm using a 32 to throw 17.5 grains of Red Dot). MEC confirmed that it was fine, and the chart was only a guideline. I also noted that the first couple of charges varied. MEC again confirmed that it was normal for the first couple of charges to vary until the powder settled. So I started throwing a couple of powder loads before loading my first shell. Once it settled out, I started reloading.
Brand new Red Dot powder. I bought it. It's fresh. I'm reloading AA shells that had already been primed and stored in a big bag from the previous owner. He said they were Winchester primers.
Today I was shooting my reloads and was doing pretty decent. Not fantastic, but not too bad. I attributed it to my lack of practice. But about the 10th reload made a weird sound, and I missed what should have been a pretty easy shot. My friend said the wad barely made it out, and that it "smoked" more than normal (I noticed the smoke too). I pulled the barrel to make sure it was clear, and then put it back together and headed to the next station. All was fine for a couple of rounds, but then I had another one make a unusual sound, and I missed again. My friend commented that it sounded weird, and had that same puff of smoke he noted before. Checked barrel again - Clear. We kept going and at my second to last position on the skeet range, I had another make a unusual pop, miss, and for the first time ever, this gun didn't eject the shell. I easily manually ejected it and checked the barrel. Everything seemed to be in working order.
Sorry for the long story - but I wanted to cover everything.
My question is - Do you think it was an inconsistent powder load, or do you think my problem was primer related?
All the best,
Glenn
If at first you don't succeed... buy newer / better equipment!
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| Re: Shot reloaded shells today - Problems [message #22957 is a reply to message #22936] |
Sat, 29 June 2013 12:52  |
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I would also agree that it is probably primer related. Sounds like you are doing everything right and the rest of the loads seem to be doing fine.
Mr. Murl
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| Re: Shot reloaded shells today - Problems [message #22960 is a reply to message #22958] |
Sat, 29 June 2013 14:09 |
jamesgammel
Messages: 1708
Registered: August 2012
Location: Lovell, Wyoming
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Glenn,
I'm not so convinced that your "squib" shots were primer related. having spent many hours on the skeet range in the past, hearing and seeing squib loads occassionally, and checking out the shooter's shells almost always resulted in discovering one of two conditions being most responsible. One obviously was a severely low powder charge. Generally caused by either inconsistent loading procedures (ie getting into a "rhythm" and really paying attention to powder level, the charge bar moving completely to the extremes), and the other "biggie" was a tipped or "folded wad", where the expanding "gases" would escape past the wad.
As I recall, your 600 was an older model, likely made in the late 60's or somewhere in the 70's. As such, it may have had a lot of use. You didn't indicate what wad you were using not the condition of the AA hulls that you had gotten with the press. Two conditions exaccerbates wad tipping, or folding. What condition was the "wad guide" (the plastic multi-fingered thing that lowers into the hull at the shot-charging "station"? Missing or bent, or folded "fingers". *can* cause or allow a wad to tip or the little plastic cup on the bottom to fold up when inserted at this point. Most times (if paying real close attention" you can feel it "jump" while going into the hull. The other possibility that will also be a "cause" is the crimp of the hull. Once fired hulls will typically have an alomst fully "round" shape, but more used ones retain more and more of a "W" look, and those more pronounced inner "V's" can catch the wad as it enters the hull.
WW shells are lamost impossible to check because they aren't very transparent, but some other hulls will pass enough light to see the wad and shot column in a loaded shell. A really bright light may help with being able to see that in the AA's.
Moisture getting into primers unless really abused is pretty darn unlikely, if you're thinking humidity attack. Almost all, if not all primers are sold in plastic-trayed paper sleeved packaging, which is no where close to being in a "sealed" environment, even if purchased in 1000 count "cartons". WW 209's have a white "cover" at the inner-shell end, and more than enough "sealing" to keep out humidity in almost any typical storage situation, other than perhaps in a sauna, whether in the packaging, or in a primed hull. I would think that you at least gave those hulls a cursory examination before loading them, and likely saw that they were in reasonably descent shape, and no nasty contamination, rust, green corrosion, etc. on the primers and brass inside or outside (including the primer). If you have any of those already reloaded shells left, since you had 3/25 bad loads in at least one box, I'd suspect that other boxes would have about the same "nasty" shells as well. Low charge (serious) would manifest itself with a deeper crimp than usual so see if the crimp depths all appear to be more-or-less identical on all the loaded shells.
roughly 10K pressure levels on a 1 1/8 oz 12 gauge shell is really pushing the lower limit for reliable ignition. I'm also guessing that when you looked down the barrel after a squib load, it was likely really nasty dirty down there. Red-dot is filthy enough on good loads, much less squib loads, besides prone to, leaving a mess at the bench.
Decapping live primers is never a good idea, regardless of how much of a PITA it may be to "bang-em-off" so you can safely deprime the hulls. To bad you don't have a 12 ga. encore barrel in some configuration. If you do shoot em off, let us know if you experience any "weak" cracks when you do, mite be surprised to find out that the primers weren't at fault after all. (I would be tho). BTW, what wads were you using?
Jim
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| Re: Shot reloaded shells today - Problems [message #22961 is a reply to message #22960] |
Sat, 29 June 2013 15:52 |
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cajuntec
Messages: 1250
Registered: November 2009
Location: Williamsburg, VA
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Jim,
A few others on Texas Bowhunters had mentioned the same as you. I'm still not 100% convinced either way, and guess I'm going to have to do some more testing. "Getting into a rhythm" was mentioned by many. Consistent "slamming" the bar back and forth was brought up by a few people, and that might also be contributing to some of this. My 410 reloader kind of requires a harder push, so the bar always slams back and forth. I was kinda' taking it easy with the 12 gauge reloader, so the bar really wasn't being consistently slapped back and forth. That may be contributing to my problem.
The press I'm using, although older, was rebuilt before I purchased it. It's stronger / more sturdy than my newer press. The wad guide fingers are brand new - replaced when it was rebuilt. I also have a spare wad guide finger insert that I just bought as a spare.
My hulls are all Winchester AA hulls. I made sure to inspect the inside of each one prior to using them because I had read where different bases require different loads (some have the paper bases, some are molded red plastic like all of the ones I have). I checked each one for debris, as well as ensuring there was no corrosion. You are right - all of these have little white "covers" over the top. I just looked into my primer stash, and found out some important things - all of my "older" Winchester 209 primers (white box) have white covers. The brand new Winchester 209 primers that I bought this year (blue box) have tan colored (like cardboard) covers. The Federal 209 primers that I have sport red covers. I never knew their was a difference in color until I looked at them. Wasn't planning on using Remington primers, but now wondering what color their cover is? (Just being curious)
The crimps all appear to be relatively consistent. There are a few that look deeper than others, but not over-done like the diagrams show. I tried to keep a good eye on the wad pressure indicator while reloading, and it consistently moved between the 30 and 40 marks (recommended level in the manuals). There isn't very much room between those two markings on the level, but as long as it moved over the 30 and below the 40, I considered it appropriate.
One thing I noticed in the used shells - some of these shells used to be 3". All are low brass based, red plastic inside, and all are cut to the same length. But some of these shells are marked with a 3" designation, while others are marked 2 3/4". I can only guess that someone cut the 3" with a professional tool, as you cannot tell they have been cut unless you see the 3" designation and then measure it. They all match up with the 2 3/4" length.
The barrel actually wasn't as nasty as I would have expected, but something that I thought was weird was that the residue inside the barrel was mostly to one side of the barrel. If holding it like it was mounted in the shotgun, looking through the breech with the muzzle held upward, most of the powder residue was on the right side of the barrel. The left side had much less. I thought that was odd.
My load is:
2 3/4" Winchester AA hulls
1 1/8 oz of shot
Winchester 209 primer
17.5 grains of Red Dot
Windjammer wads with the designation for a 1 1/8 load
Alliant Powder's estimates for this load are approximately 9,300 psi at a velocity of 1,145 fps
Awesome info and help. Thanks Jim. I appreciate the continued assistance.
All the best,
Glenn
If at first you don't succeed... buy newer / better equipment!
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| Re: Shot reloaded shells today - Problems [message #22967 is a reply to message #22961] |
Sun, 30 June 2013 08:38 |
jamesgammel
Messages: 1708
Registered: August 2012
Location: Lovell, Wyoming
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Glenn, don't sweat the 3 vs 2 3/4 marks on the shells. AA marked shells are ONLY in 2 3/4 length. The 2 3/4 and 3's you see are "dram equivalents", which is more related to velocity. The trap and skeet associations regulaing "registered" shooting only allow for 2 3/4 length shells in 12, 20, and 28 gauge shooting (skeet), and 2 1/2 length shells for the 410 events. Generally, 2 3/4 DE 12 gauge loads will have velocities around 1145 fps, and the 3's are ~1200. Even field loads will have similar stampings. a "lite" skeet load will typically be stamped, for example 2 3/4-1 1/8- 9. DE-shot charge-shot size. Remington's "Express" field load may be marked 3 3/4-1 1/4- 6 for 3 3/4 dram equivalent (goes back to black-powder days), 1 1/4 oz of #6 shot. (no such thing as a 3 3/4 12 gauge chamber).
FWIW, I always got the most consistent loads with a smooth, but light moving the charge bar than heavy handed slamming on my MEC Versamec 700, with "rhythm" being loading more as a "cadence" during the reloading process. Something going amiss disturbs that cadence rhythm and alerts you to examine just what it was that disturbed it, something just wasn't quite right with that last motion--shell not fully in shell-holder, wad caught the crimp, etc.
Jim
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| Re: Shot reloaded shells today - Problems [message #22974 is a reply to message #22967] |
Sun, 30 June 2013 12:56 |
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cajuntec
Messages: 1250
Registered: November 2009
Location: Williamsburg, VA
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 Have you ever had that feeling when you realize something so obvious somehow got past you all these years? 
I cannot believe I never caught onto that. I've been shooting a shotgun for over 30 years, and I never bothered to research what "dram equivalent" meant. If it was the correct length shell, in the shot size I wanted, made for what I was going to use it for (target loads, steel shot for ducks, small game loads) I bought it and used it. Over time, I started paying attention to the velocity ratings as well. But the dram equivalent was something I just never looked at.
I just looked at several different manufacturers boxes of shells. Some are only marked with the shot size. Some are marked with more, such as that 3 - 7 1/2 - 1 1/8, or in another order like 3 - 1 1/8 - 8. I've stuffed those shells into my shotgun so many times without ever reading what was on the side, as the box was what I generally went by. If I didn't shoot all the shells, they went back into the same box. The only time I had to read the shell markings were if I put them into a plastic shell box, but again - I never paid attention to that first mark. So until today, I never realized that first number might not be the shell length, but instead, the dram equivalent. Good info to know. 
All the best,
Glenn
If at first you don't succeed... buy newer / better equipment!
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| Re: Shot reloaded shells today - Problems [message #22990 is a reply to message #22974] |
Mon, 01 July 2013 22:47 |
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cajuntec
Messages: 1250
Registered: November 2009
Location: Williamsburg, VA
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Well... heck. I installed that baffle that I bought, and that definitely changed things. I'm getting fairly consistant powder throws, but the powder amount went UP. Now that same bushing is throwing between 17.8 and 18 grains, instead of 17.4 to 17.8. When I first started measuring (right after adding the powder), I was at 17.4, 17.2, 17.4, 17.5.... then it just jumped up to 17.8 and stayed between 17.8 and 18 for the most part. Every once in a while, I'd get a 18.1 or a 17.5, but for the most part, it stayed between 17.8 and 18. Good from the standpoint that it's more consistent, but not good from the standpoint that the charge increased with the baffle. That's odd. I didn't change anything else. Just added the baffle.
Out of measuring about 30 charges, I never saw one go lower than 17.2, and that was only at the beginning. After the powder settled, it was all above the 17.5 called for in the reloading table, but not so high as to give an over-pressure load.
The load I was initally going for was from Alliant's (Red Dot powder) site -
1 1/8 oz of shot, 17.5 grains Red Dot powder, Win 209 primer, Windjammer wad, approx 9300 psi
The load I'm ending up with is still within tolerances according to Windjammer Wads reloading info, as -
1 1/8 oz of shot, 18.5 grains of Red Dot powder, Win 209 primer, Windjammer wad, is approx 9900 psi
I think their 18 grain load has a mistake though....
1 1/8 oz of shot, 18 grains of Red Dot powder, Win 209 primer, Windjammer wad, shows approx 9100 psi (less than the 17.5 grains - that has to be wrong.) I'm guessing that if you split the difference, that load is probably 9600 psi, not 9100 psi.
Thoughts?
All the best,
Glenn
If at first you don't succeed... buy newer / better equipment!
[Updated on: Mon, 01 July 2013 23:15] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Shot reloaded shells today - Problems [message #22994 is a reply to message #22990] |
Tue, 02 July 2013 10:11 |
jamesgammel
Messages: 1708
Registered: August 2012
Location: Lovell, Wyoming
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Glenn, the windjammer data you quoted and concerned about (9100psi) is for a 1 oz load yielding ~1200 fps.
You asked for "thoughts". Personally, I think your making a big issue of insignificant issues. 1. I checked your windjammer chart. Pressures ranged from 5900 to 11,200, OVER 5k difference. You're sweating a few 100's pf pressure differences, not Thousands. 2. Your post indicates your shooting a 12 ga. auto. To function properly, it requires a certain amount of pressure for the action to cycle, your particular gun, may have provisions for light vs "heavy" loads. 3. You mention "overpressures". I've seen data that yields pressures approaching 15K, well over your concerns about even reaching 10K. What kind of pressures do you think 3" 1 7/8 ounce turkey load at 1310fps is pushing?
am I saying to ignore reloading data? NO!!, but keep your scope within the extreme parameters, not relatively minor differences at the low or even mid ranges in the pressure parameters. To quote shakespeare, you're making "much ado about nothing" at least with this topic.
Charge bars dump shot charges by volume. My experience shows 1 1/8 oz bars are pretty close with # 9 shot, and as the shot gets bigger, the further below 1 1/8 oz by weight they drop. it also makes a difference what type of shot: hardened, chilled, copperplated, etc. Even factory loads don't contain EXACTLY the same number of pellets in every shell over a whole case of shells in the same lot. You gonna start counting and hand inserting shot pellets to get "uniform loads". gonna weigh each pellet and sort by weight every bag of shot?
You saw that you got more consistent powder charges with the baffle, That should be a plus. Now, load some shells and do some shooting, and enjoy yourself on the target range. Squib loads should be a concern, so finding out WHY is an important endeavor, unreliable ammo isn't a good thing. If it means using a different powder for reliability in your gun, so be it. If fresh primers yields zero glitches; great, lesson learned, problem solved.
Good luck,good shooting,
Jim
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